Help! Re Fire Alarm System

[mopsy]

Hello. I run a “2 man band” mail order business, and we recently moved to an old 3 storey building. The top floor is unused. The middle floor is our stock room and offices, and we are opening a shop on the ground floor.

We had an electrician to come out yesterday to wire up some lights for us and he is insisting we have to install an automatic fire alarm system!  He is talking figures of up to £16,000.  This seems like overkill for a 2 person company (we should however grow to 4-5 people within a year).  In fact if we have to have it, we are out of business.

We did our own fire risk in conjunction with step by step advice from fire.org and the employers handbook so have installed self closing fire doors for the offices and shop and taken the construction advice from the sellers, a local joinery company specialising in fire doors and equipment, but this electrician is saying that because we are opening a building to the public, we have to have this fire detection system or the fire officer will visit and could prosecute us.

We've already spent thousands on getting the shop open.  We have bought annually maintained fire extinguishiers and a fire blanket for each exit (there are 4 fire exits) and we have an old fire escape on the building.  It was my thought to install portable fire alarms x 10 to site around the place, and we are a no smoking building.  We sell gifts and clothing and the only flamable material may be perfumes (small amounts).  We would thereafter rely on staff to alert anyone in the event of a fire and I thought this was OK to do.  

Can anyone advise me on this! I am at the end of my tether and terrified to phone the fire officer now in case he closes us down.

Thank you!

[messy]

It's very difficult to give definate advice without more details of your premises but on the face of what you have described it seems likely that a full automatic system may be overkill.

You need to be able to warn others (including your staff, customers and contractors) in the event of a fire and for a 3 storey building you may need to consider installing a manually operated fire alarm (break glass) as the building may be too large to rely on shouting a warning, which is what I believe you are suggesting. Ironically, the provision of fire doors also makes shouting up 2 floors less of an option.

There are thousands of premises in the UK with a shop (open to the public) on the G fl, storage on the 1st & 2nd floors with no automatic system.

Have you asked you insurance company? or alternatively you could always ask your local fire service for advice. I can assure you, even though I don't know where your business is situated, they will not prosecute you in these circumstances or indeed close you down.

Legal action often costs cash strapped fire services in time and money and although threatened, litigation is usually reserved for the uncooperative and negligent.  Clearly from what you have already done, you are neither

[Brian Downes]

Mopsy,
           What did your DIY risk assessment say about the issue of fire alarm system? The fact you are asking this question demonstates that your risk assessment is neither suitable or sufficient.
Get a professional risk assessment done, it will be money well spent in the long run.
Try the professional register on the Institution of Fire Engineers website
[www.ife.org.uk] for a reputable company to carry out the job.
The fire officer probably would only close you down as a last resort!!, but it is not his job to give you detailed advice on how to manage your legal obligations as an employer...get that risk assessment..  and an action plan to implement any findings,  drawn up in conjunction with a professional fire safety advisor.
Good luck.

[Chris Houston]

Mopsy,

It's hard to tell if you need one or not.  If I were you I would be trying to work out, if a fire could jeapordise the escape route of anyone.

Most of the legislation is aimed at protecting employees.

I very much doubt if you have a spare grand or so to hire a fire safety expert to do your risk assessment, I wouldm't worry too much about contacting the Fire and Rescuse Service, they hardly ever prosecute anyone, I am sure they will point you in the right direction.

£16,000 sounds expensive.  If you really need one, get a few quotes.

I doubt your insurers will be bothered, life safety is not really their main concern.

Great website by the way.

[mopsy]

Wow, thanks all for the quick advice!

Our DIY assessment was done because of the low amount of employees we have, the nature of what we sell, and the expected amount of visitors to the ground floor. I doubt there will ever be more than about 10 customers in at any one time (and hey, if there is, that will be great and we can reassess the fire alarm situation and might even be able to afford one!).  However we did make a report on all the points including how long it takes to reach a fire exit and so on.

I will be brave, and call the fire service and see what they say.  Oh, and see if I can get an new electrician!

[Brian Downes]

Chris,
         If Mopsy has 'spent thousands alrerady on the place' it is a shame he has not got a few bob for a professional FRA.
It worries me that folks will spend thousands on building & business projects but do not recognise that they need to invest in proper professional advice on fire safety management.
I accept that the place is modest but will Mopsy have the same attitude about investing money in sound fire safety advice when he, hopefully has a chain of outlets?
I have seen many times the result of the 'self made man' who develops a sizeable business but still tries to deal with many aspects of its management himself, instead of buying in appropriate advice.
Start as you mean to go on I say...However, it would seem that your advice will be in line with the new draft guidance that is causing so much debate elseswhrere on the site....Mabe that is an opening for Colin Todd & PhilB..hey Ho!

[Brian Downes]

Mopsy,
           Don't call the Fire Service!...they may  open all sorts of cans of worms...get a proper risk assessment, at least the assessor acts on your behalf...the fire officer may not close you down, but he does represent an enforcement agency.
He may be half trained and spend your money for you without a thought, or he may challenge your risk assessment as it is not 'suitable and sufficient',  or because you are not 'competent' to carry it out.. you have been warned!!

[Allen Higginson]

Wow, thanks all for the quick advice!

Our DIY assessment was done because of the low amount of employees we have, the nature of what we sell, and the expected amount of visitors to the ground floor. I doubt there will ever be more than about 10 customers in at any one time (and hey, if there is, that will be great and we can reassess the fire alarm situation and might even be able to afford one!).  However we did make a report on all the points including how long it takes to reach a fire exit and so on.

I will be brave, and call the fire service and see what they say.  Oh, and see if I can get an new electrician!

         I would have thought that as a minimum an M category system would be sufficient to meet most legal requirements.This is a break glass only system so that if a fire is spotted the alarm can be raised and all can be evacuated.On a personal basis I would say cover the stairways and escape routes (this would include the groundfloor areas that you have to pass through to reach the exit) with automatic detection - your insurer may ask for this or may give you a discount on,or enhance, your premium.Automatic detection throughout the premises would only be beneficial if the fire alarm is monitored (ie - it goes through to an alarm receiving centre) otherwise you're depending on someone hearing the fire alarm and ringing 999 out of hours!
         With regards to Chris "not calling the fire service" the will (in most cases) only highlight breakglass units and audibility with regards to a fire system.If the public had no access to the premises then they may say you do not need a fire system if your staff numbers are minimum (not sure of exact number).However they may highlight other areas  that you have missed but even then they wont just close you down or stop you trading.
         Not knowing your site but have a visual in my head of what it is,the £16k does appear excessive.I do agree with Brian that most times the fire alarm is left to the end of the budget.It annoys me (as an engineer) to see multi thousand pound light fittings and marble walls being installed while the guy is bending my ear over an extra detector or two which cost a fraction of that.In your case you have to assess what you can afford to lose over what is feasible for you to spend and,ultimately,what is your objective in installing a fire alarm system.
        Take my advice and contact an actual fire alarm company with regards to an installation.You can ask them for a survey ,which is free (well,it'll probably be built into your price if you agree but thats another story!!),and for alternative pricing depending on the level of cover that you require.

[Brian Downes]

Mopsy,
          The risk assessment will reveal the approprite type of fire alarm system required to achieve specific objectives in your building. Discuss these with your fire advisor...then get a reputable alarm company to design and install a system.

[Graeme]

Take my advice and contact an actual fire alarm company with regards to an installation..

Im totally with Buzzer on this one.Ask your Sparky if he can prove he is competant to give you such advice and install and commission a fd+a system.
Some are but most don't have a clue and i end up seeing their handy work at some stage.
If i test a call point the sounders go therefore i have installed it correctly springs to mind.I could rewire a house but i leave that to electrician's.

i should point out that i reffer to spark's in my area in case i get a back lash from the sparky population.

[Allen Higginson]

Less of the Buzzer by the way!

[Graeme]

ok i will. I could not resist that one.

[colin todd]

Brian, Actually consultants are not the answer to everything! I often feel that for the small employer he is better having a go himself, because then he buys into it. He will not pick up things that you and I would but if he is committed the things he misses will not kill anyone. (Famous last words!)

[Allen Higginson]

Brian, Actually consultants are not the answer to everything! I often feel that for the small employer he is better having a go himself, because then he buys into it. He will not pick up things that you and I would but if he is committed the things he misses will not kill anyone. (Famous last words!)

Try telling that to the look-out on the Titanic!!!

[colin todd]

You should know Buzz. It was built over there! But the lifeboat provision complied with the legislation, so that must have been ok???