Newgrange Care Home

[col10]

From BS 5839:
"An L1 system might be appropriate in buildings in which there is a significant number of
occupants at special risk in the event of fire"

"We had a number of people that were unable to get themselves out, you know, physically would not have been able to move even under normal circumstances," he said.

[William 29]

From BS 5839:
"An L1 system might be appropriate in buildings in which there is a significant number of
occupants at special risk in the event of fire"

"We had a number of people that were unable to get themselves out, you know, physically would not have been able to move even under normal circumstances," he said.

If we are talking care homes, then fine. This debates extends to sheltered schemes and general needs though as well. 

[David Rooney]

Taking up all the walls / fitting barriers around the bedrooms is expensive because AFD is needed to each space formed in the roof.  

The difficulty of fixing an effective  barrier where trussed rafters are used means that the designer chooses the option in ADB to use a fire resistant ceiling.  Then there is the problem of fitting a hatch in the fire resistant ceiling to maintain the  AFD in the loft.

Why would you fit AFD as well? Are you thinking the over 800mm clause 5839?

Once the FR is in place and there is no need to enter the loft, would you need to do maintenance inspections? The RP just needs to make sure once FR is in place any contractor or trades person is aware not to breach any FR walls or if they do, how to make them good.

Yes, void more than 800mm.

That would only be if you are applying Cat L1 or L2 coverage? Not sure that would provide any benefit for the property types we are discussing?

Not quite true .... it would apply to any Category ....

22.2 d)
If the system Category is such that automatic fire detection should be provided in any area that contains a horizontal void of 800 mm or more in height, automatic fire detection should also be provided in the void. Voids less than 800 mm in height need not be protected, unless either:
1)
the void is such that extensive spread of fire or smoke, particularly between rooms and compartments, can take place before detection; or
2)
on the basis of a fire risk assessment, the fire risk in the void is such as to warrant protection of the void.

and Note 4 goes on .....

If the fire risk within a void of 800 mm or more is considered to be low, consideration might be given to omission of fire detection from the void, subject to the agreement of the interested parties (see Clause 6), but this ought to be recorded as a variation on the relevant system certificate. This might arise, for example, if the probability of ignition and development of fire in the void were very low, or if the void were limited in extent so that spread of fire beyond the room of origin, via the void, were unlikely.

[wee brian]

Lofts have Solar Panel electrics in them these days - so plenty of opportunity for ignition

[colin todd]

Try not to confuse care homes with sheltered housing or general needs flats.  Care homes do not have stay put, they have PHE, and need afd in roof voids.  If flats are compartmented as per ADB (and by the way it does not offer a FR ceiling as an alternative), the roof void above each flat is like a loft space in a hosue, where you would not put AFd, unless as the wee tyrant says there is PV equipment up there, in which case you would do as per a house- put an interlinked smoke alarm up there.

[nearlythere]

I can understand why assessors and inspectors don't access the roof space, many drive cars with no room for any kind of step ladders and like to go to work dressed as if they were off to the opera. In any event there may well be justified and invented health and safety reasons. So they are unlikely to access voids above suspended ceilings where compartmentation issues often abound.
When carrying out inspections on the electrical engineering services in a building I go to the job in a van, have appropriate industrial-grade access equipment, lighting and method statements prepared. I look in roof spaces and in voids, I have overalls on and I am prepared to get dirty.
Perhaps time that the FRA guys and gals had a look in their wardrobes for some different attire?

Not many fire risk assessors carry a torch and step ladder in the car Lyle. Might I suggest if they don't they are not carrying out a fire risk assessment?
I don't think a comment in the assessment saying they didnt or won't look above head height is adequate. Is that not what they are being paid to do?

[nearlythere]

The day before this happened I spoke to a Care home provider and told him that a fire involving a Care home with a loss of life was just around the corner. And it was. When will the government bite the bullet and commit to legislation that all Care homes in UK must have a sprinkler system installed. Expensive yes but a compliance time of even 10 or 20 years would at least mean that by then our Care homes are a much safer places.

[Owain]

When will the government bite the bullet and commit to legislation that all Care homes in UK must have a sprinkler system installed.

Should the sprinkler system cover the ceiling voids?

But I agree with you, there are serious problems with speed of spread of fire vs speed of evacuation in many sorts of premises with vulnerable people.

[colin todd]

Yes, if the sprinkler code says it should i.e. over 800mm.

[colin todd]

Almost, when you say THE Government, clearly you are not talking about THE Government (namely that in Scotland), but that in the remainder (and less important) parts of the UK, nor are you talking about Wales (wherever that is).

All new care homes in Scotland have had sprinklers since 2004, which is a very long time ago-you were probably double declutching all the way to Derry in those days. Admittedly only new build, but one must start somewhere.  Of course, this will not save those directly involved in a fire (e.g. on their bed).  So, if you persuade the nice chaps at Stormont ( is it working currently, I never know whether it is still doing anything or not, cos it keeps changing), then the English will be isolated (not for the first time).

In England, wee B thinks you can cast all other measures to the wind if you sprinkler a care home and have a million people in a sub-compartment with 2 staff on duty and all million doors standing open all day and all night.

[nearlythere]

Almost, when you say THE Government, clearly you are not talking about THE Government (namely that in Scotland), but that in the remainder (and less important) parts of the UK, nor are you talking about Wales (wherever that is).

All new care homes in Scotland have had sprinklers since 2004, which is a very long time ago-you were probably double declutching all the way to Derry in those days. Admittedly only new build, but one must start somewhere.  Of course, this will not save those directly involved in a fire (e.g. on their bed).  So, if you persuade the nice chaps at Stormont ( is it working currently, I never know whether it is still doing anything or not, cos it keeps changing), then the English will be isolated (not for the first time).

In England, wee B thinks you can cast all other measures to the wind if you sprinkler a care home and have a million people in a sub-compartment with 2 staff on duty and all million doors standing open all day and all night.

That double clutching nearly broke my wee arm. Yes new homes have Dot but it imight be a bit too long to wait until existing buildings need to be replaced.
No we don't have an assembly as of this evening but who cares. We seem to be getting along quite nicely without it.

[colin todd]

Double declutching may have broken your arm, but parting with the 4 pennies you needed to put in the phone box to send back the stop message broke your heart.  Were you not of the seniority to get a Range Rover to drive?

Anyhow, I better say something relevant in reply or wee B, in continuation of the best traditions of Kurnal (God rest his soul) will chide me.  Rome wasn't built in a day. Indeed, if the project manager for the building of the city had come from Norn Iron, they would have spent the first day making sure that there were as many construction workers kicking with the left foot as kick with the right. Starting off 13 years ago with new build care homes has made an impact.  All care homes in Scotland get an augmented first attendance to a call (as opposed to no attendance in some areas of Englandshire until they promise on their mother's life that there is really a fire).  All new build are also required to have an ARC connection.

Until the circumstances of the fire to which this thread relates are known, the possible impact of sprinklers cannot be determined, though I agree you would expect sprinklers to at least have saved everyone beyond the room of origin from injury.

[nearlythere]

Double declutching may have broken your arm, but parting with the 4 pennies you needed to put in the phone box to send back the stop message broke your heart.  Were you not of the seniority to get a Range Rover to drive?

Anyhow, I better say something relevant in reply or wee B, in continuation of the best traditions of Kurnal (God rest his soul) will chide me.  Rome wasn't built in a day. Indeed, if the project manager for the building of the city had come from Norn Iron, they would have spent the first day making sure that there were as many construction workers kicking with the left foot as kick with the right. Starting off 13 years ago with new build care homes has made an impact.  All care homes in Scotland get an augmented first attendance to a call (as opposed to no attendance in some areas of Englandshire until they promise on their mother's life that there is really a fire).  All new build are also required to have an ARC connection.

Until the circumstances of the fire to which this thread relates are known, the possible impact of sprinklers cannot be determined, though I agree you would expect sprinklers to at least have saved everyone beyond the room of origin from injury.

Next time you get caught in a hail storm Dot be sure it's Kurnal just reminding you he hasn't gone away you know.

[colin todd]

I would love to think that Big Al is looking down at us all and shaking his head disapprovingly in his schoolmaster mode.  And who knows? Maybe he is.

[bevfs]

How many assessors would have inspected the roof void ? I always made a point of checking them after the fire I atteded.


How many assessors!

How many inspecting officers go in the roof? Haven't seen one yet

very judgmental
well I have been in roof voids and cellars!!, and always inspect theses hidden areas where I can, every time I inspect but I am not provided with any ladders by the authority to gain access. I have always asked for this equipment, but to no avail!!, as the response coming back is that we are only sample auditing a premises, and findings should be recorded in the fire risk assessment.
100% agreed, more inspection has to be taken of void areas loft spaces etc., and having fire authority inspectors fit and able and willing  enough to get up there and inspect!(not frightened of spiders, bad knees,blah blah blah   hence why they were retied early from the fire service, because what you see written in a fire risk assessment is not always what you see in the void areas, that's where the problems area!!
(ps and I am civilian inspector)