instruction to fire officers

[kurnal]

I always used to say I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

I think PAS79 is is a good system but I find the report form 'orrible.

And Phil I have never yet found a hazard that I cant describe in writing that could be better indicated on a plan. Plans have value in giving a simple overview of the layout and arrangements but thats as far as it goes. Plans make it too easy for the fire officer. I say give em some bedtime reading.

Yes there is great value in exchanging ideas and methods. I admit that I put together my template from another firm I did some work for but have developed it hugely since then.  I do find a tick box checklist the best way of meeting the requirement to record the significant finding ie article 9.7 (a)  "including the measures which have been ... taken by the responsible person pursuant to this Order" . For example the checklist may say

At the time of the assessment there was adequate separation between the assessed premises and adjacent buildings or structures. Tick.  

That makes it easy doesnt it?

[PhilB]

And Phil I have never yet found a hazard that I cant describe in writing that could be better indicated on a plan. Plans have value in giving a simple overview of the layout and arrangements but thats as far as it goes. Plans make it too easy for the fire officer. I say give em some bedtime reading.

Yes there is great value in exchanging ideas and methods. I admit that I put together my template from another firm I did some work for but have developed it hugely since then.  I do find a tick box checklist the best way of meeting the requirement to record the significant finding ie article 9.7 (a)  "including the measures which have been ... taken by the responsible person pursuant to this Order" . For example the checklist may say

At the time of the assessment there was adequate separation between the assessed premises and adjacent buildings or structures. Tick.  

That makes it easy doesnt it?

Tut tut Prof you know very well that it is more than the SFs that need to be recorded, once you have decided which definition of SFs you are going to use of course.


Plans are, in my opinion the easiest way of recording the preventive and protective measures, not for recording hazards. A checklist or template is a good way of promting you to look at everything you need to look at.

Whatever method used is irrelevant, the prescribed information that must be recorded remains the same and that is where in my experience many assessments fail.

and many just record a load of information but do not have any conclusions. Surely there must be a conclusion saying either everything is ok or more needs doing and justifying why that is so.

[lingmoor]

Interesting this...as I said we are all different...

the way I do mine is in the form of a report under different headings such as introduction to premises...occupants...previous fire history... risk classification...fire hazards and their removal or reduction..fire protection measures..arson prevention etc etc..very similar I suppose to PAS 79 but in my own way...with no tick boxes

within that I put the body of the report

At the end I put the significant findings under headings...Hazards...People who are at risk...Existing Measures....Action required

I ask the owner if I can take photos and everyone so far has said yes...and I take snaps of the hazards and put them in my report to highlight them

There is more to it than that put it's a precis of what I do

" I'll show you mine if you show me yours"

[messy]

Plans make it too easy for the fire officer. I say give em some bedtime reading.

I agree, make us earn our money. However I reckon if you make it easy for 'the fire officer' then they will be able to tick all the boxes on thier audit sheet and go back to the office (or probably home) very happy of a job well done.

The alternative is they dig around in the body of the report and find something to make a fuss about.

I cannot count how many designs of FRA I have seen. Some consist of half a dozen pages which are excellent Others maybe made up of 100+ pages of drivel-  including plans, cartoons, photos and pop up models of the building (OK I made the last one up!!) - but fail to adequately record anything they should whilst simutaneously winding up the IO.

I have devised a FRA report format (for when I make the transition into the real world) and intend to have the very first page(s) entitled 'A Note to FS Enforcers'

In this 'note' I list what information the FS Order says needs to be recorded, and where in my FRA report (what section/page no) the specific information will be found.

This helps the IO find exactly what they are looking for without the need to speed-read the entire document.

[Finlaydodo]

PhilB
Could you please send me your template and method of auditing.
Regards
JohnI (your old boss)

[jasper]

sounds like a good idea messy

[Tom W]

i like messys idea too

[Wiz]

and me!

[Midland Retty]

Yes Messy spot on...that would saves everyone's time... and as far as Im concerned would demonstrate the assessor knows what they are talking about.

It is interesting to note that some of us get concerned about the lack of consistency between Inspecting Officers (sometimes rightly so) and yet assessors / consultants can also be inconsistent as this thread has shown.

A Risk Assessed legislative regime can never truly be consistent because each individual situation will always be different.

If. as Messy suggests, however there is clear methodology behind how certain answers or findings were arrived at it certainly helps the Insp Off. audit the legitimacy and relevance of the content of the FRA

To me clear communication, using the format of your choice, is the way forward to help the Insp Officer and RP or assessor understand each others viewpoint.

[Tom Sutton]

I have devised a FRA report format (for when I make the transition into the real world) and intend to have the very first page(s) entitled 'A Note to FS Enforcers'

In this 'note' I list what information the FS Order says needs to be recorded, and where in my FRA report (what section/page no) the specific information will be found.

This helps the IO find exactly what they are looking for without the need to speed-read the entire document.

Have you completed this project if so any chance of a copy?

[messy]

Sorry TWS I did get your PM but have been run off my feet just lately (honest)

As far as the report format goes, no I have yet finalised it. I intend to trial the pilot by testing it on a couple of FRAs for friends of mine that run businesses - one a small high st shop, the other a large industrial concern.

It's the first page of the document I am struggling with which will point the IO in the direction of where in the body of the report s/he will find those items which are required to be 'recorded'. (namely, items in Article 9 & 11).  Until I have perfected the full report, it's not possible to point to any specific section.

I have copied the draft wording of the document. The point of sharing it here is for others to comment whether such a note (at the front of a FRA) is useful, and whether it could be improved

_______________________________________________________________________________

NOTICE TO ENFORCING (FIRE SAFETY) AUTHORITY INSPECTOR


Introduction

With no standard format for Fire Risk Assessments, Inspecting Officers (Fire Safety Officers) often face the daunting task of interpreting a range of differing styles and formats of reports when completing a fire safety audit.

This page is designed to assist the Inspecting Officer complete their fire safety audit by providing a summary of the design of this specific fire risk assessment, in order that key areas which the Fire Safety Order requires to be recorded (such as the significant findings) are easy to locate.

The design of this report follows the UK Government’s 5 step plan for risk assessing as set out on the DCLG website.

----------------------------------------

Items which must be recorded under The FS(RR)O


RR(FS)O  Article 9 (6) (Fire Risk Assessment) requires, where necessary, the Responsible Person (RP) to record the following ‘Prescribed Information’ after carrying out, or Reviewing the FRA.....The ‘Significant Findings’ of the FRA, including measures which have been or will be taken by the RP.... Article 9(7)(a)

   A summary of the main significant findings are given in SECTION A3
   Details of all significant findings are given throughout SECTIONS A to D


--------------------------------------


RR(FS)O Article 11 also states that the RP, where necessary, must record the arrangements for effective planning, organisation, control, monitoring and review of the preventative and protective measures... Article11(1)

   Details of effective planning, organisation and control of the preventative and protective measures are given in SECTIONS (A BULLET POINT LIST WILL BE INSERTED HERE BUT IS NOT YET WRITTEN AS MY REPORT FORMAT IS NOT YET FINALISED AND/OR TESTED)

   Details of , monitoring and review of the preventative and protective measures are given in SECTION   E  - Review



---------------------------------------


Your thoughts??

[PhilB]

Looks good to me, many seem to forget that significant findings includes the measures that have been and will be taken.

To be really picky I would use preventive rather than preventative because that's what the Order says.

[jasper]

if you need any help on this give me a shout and I will if I can in any way

[Ricardo]

Its a great idea Messy, remember to include in your Article 9 to record "any group of persons identified as being especially at risk" where the 5 or more etc comes into play, etc.

I have made up some POCMR bullet points for my own use, so if I by any chance you would like to see/use any of them I can forward them onto you if you want.

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Messy I am on a steep learning curve when it comes to this area of fire safety and I don’t think I can be of much use but I would hope the more experienced contributor on this forum will join in. I think it sounds a great idea and I hope it doesn’t fall by the wayside.