Batteries calculation ?

[Benzerari]

For a brand new system who has just been fitted and about to be commissioned, every body knows the batteries will take 24h to be fully charged once fitted...etc

Question 1: Would alarm current measurement should be taken after 24h?
Question 2: Would fire commissioning certificate be issued then, only after 24h, and not in the 1st day when
                 batteries are fitted?
Question 3: Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine?

Have your say!

2) Issued on the basis of findings at the time of commissioning.

.

In here, I may disagree, till you convince me, if the batteries has just been fitted, and both voltage and current haven't yet reached their top value (Full charge), therefore the calculation will be done while taking into account the necessary adjustement through Ohm's Law...etc

Imagine you have finished your commissioning in couple of hours of batteries fitting, if you issue the certificate of commissioning straight forward, what's the guaranty the batteries will supply half hour supply in case of mains failure, as the batteries are not yet fully charged?  

[Benzerari]

For a brand new system who has just been fitted and about to be commissioned, every body knows the batteries will take 24h to be fully charged once fitted...etc

Question 1: Would alarm current measurement should be taken after 24h?
Question 2: Would fire commissioning certificate be issued then, only after 24h, and not in the 1st day when
                 batteries are fitted?
Question 3: Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine?

Have your say!

3) No.

A more important reason to leave a battery charging for at least 20 hours before taking any readings is to establish it is not being overcharged by being charged at a high rate even though 'fully charged'. This would happen if the battery charging circuit is faulty or wrongly calibrated. Continuing to charge a SLA battery at a high rate after it has reached full charge will damage it.

This is very important point, but what about, the guaranty of half hour alarm supply and 48h of stand by in case of mains cut, since the batteries are not yet fully charged?

[Wiz]

For a brand new system who has just been fitted and about to be commissioned, every body knows the batteries will take 24h to be fully charged once fitted...etc

Question 1: Would alarm current measurement should be taken after 24h?
Question 2: Would fire commissioning certificate be issued then, only after 24h, and not in the 1st day when
                 batteries are fitted?
Question 3: Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine?

Have your say!

2) Issued on the basis of findings at the time of commissioning.

.

In here, I may disagree, till you convince me, if the batteries has just been fitted, and both voltage and current haven't yet reached their top value (Full charge), therefore the calculation will be done while taking into account the necessary adjustement through Ohm's Law...etc

Imagine you have finished your commissioning in couple of hours of batteries fitting, if you issue the certificate of commissioning straight forward, what's the guaranty the batteries will supply half hour supply in case of mains failure, as the batteries are not yet fully charged?  

I'm basing my answers on what the BS recommends, not what some may consider to be better practice. BS doesn't recommend you to carry out a commissioning only when the batteries are fully charged. You or I might feel that it would be good practice not to put a system 'in service' until the battery is fully charged but who are we to try to convince anyone our ideas are more important than BS recommendations?

Finally, I also don't necessarily agree that issuing a BS commissioning certificate at any time is giving any guarantee that the battery has the required capacity available at just that moment in time.
Surely the certificate is stating that when readings were taken and calculations were made, a fully charged battery would provide the standby duty required of BS recommendations. Therefore it doesn't matter if you issue the certificate 'there and then', a day later or two weeks later. The certificate is surely based on the proviso that the battery is in a suitably charged state!

[Wiz]

For a brand new system who has just been fitted and about to be commissioned, every body knows the batteries will take 24h to be fully charged once fitted...etc

Question 1: Would alarm current measurement should be taken after 24h?
Question 2: Would fire commissioning certificate be issued then, only after 24h, and not in the 1st day when
                 batteries are fitted?
Question 3: Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine?

Have your say!

3) No.

A more important reason to leave a battery charging for at least 20 hours before taking any readings is to establish it is not being overcharged by being charged at a high rate even though 'fully charged'. This would happen if the battery charging circuit is faulty or wrongly calibrated. Continuing to charge a SLA battery at a high rate after it has reached full charge will damage it.

This is very important point, but what about, the guaranty of half hour alarm supply and 48h of stand by in case of mains cut, since the batteries are not yet fully charged?

I don't know where you get the 48H figure from unless you are talking about a specific Cat. P system.

In all events your question 3 asked Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine? and the 'current' you were talking about is the 'alarm current', so this should stay the same (taking into account the voltage at the time of measurement, as explained previously) and it can't change by itself (i.e. the components of the system that draw the alarm current won't change depending on the state of the charge of the battery) over any period of time. So, in answer, to your question Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine? the answer is no, it won't be considered 'not genuine'.

I love double-negatives!

[Allen Higginson]

For a brand new system who has just been fitted and about to be commissioned, every body knows the batteries will take 24h to be fully charged once fitted...etc

Question 1: Would alarm current measurement should be taken after 24h?
Question 2: Would fire commissioning certificate be issued then, only after 24h, and not in the 1st day when
                 batteries are fitted?
Question 3: Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine?

Have your say!

2) Issued on the basis of findings at the time of commissioning.

.

In here, I may disagree, till you convince me, if the batteries has just been fitted, and both voltage and current haven't yet reached their top value (Full charge), therefore the calculation will be done while taking into account the necessary adjustement through Ohm's Law...etc

Imagine you have finished your commissioning in couple of hours of batteries fitting, if you issue the certificate of commissioning straight forward, what's the guaranty the batteries will supply half hour supply in case of mains failure, as the batteries are not yet fully charged?  

You have to be realistic here Benz in balancing the theoritical optimum battery maximum level versus the commercial time of installation/power up/commissioning.
Formula and theory do not a real world make!

[Benzerari]

2) Issued on the basis of findings at the time of commissioning.

.

In here, I may disagree, till you convince me, if the batteries has just been fitted, and both voltage and current haven't yet reached their top value (Full charge), therefore the calculation will be done while taking into account the necessary adjustement through Ohm's Law...etc

Imagine you have finished your commissioning in couple of hours of batteries fitting, if you issue the certificate of commissioning straight forward, what's the guaranty the batteries will supply half hour supply in case of mains failure, as the batteries are not yet fully charged?  

I'm basing my answers on what the BS recommends, not what some may consider to be better practice. BS doesn't recommend you to carry out a commissioning only when the batteries are fully charged. You or I might feel that it would be good practice not to put a system 'in service' until the battery is fully charged but who are we to try to convince anyone our ideas are more important than BS recommendations?

We are not at all, in a position to compare our sayings and ideas to BS recommendations (PLEASE FORGET THAT), BS has its says and you usually mentioned what BS suggests as recommendations...and that’s fairly good (affair classified)...but it has never meant to be end of thinking and supplying opinions..., our views remain just as technical views..., etc

Also all what BS have stated and sets as recommendations, it still human findings through long research and testing and analyzing...and I do appreciate that, and BS itself is under overview from time to time, and it will never ever be 100% complete and perfect... etc. we live in variably changing world, and what is relatively perfect today might not by next couple of years, and that’s what make humans thinking and analyzing things for better refinements and findings...etc

Also it’s very good if you can supply both what BS recommends and what you personally think, in a friendly manner, but it will never mean that you know better than BS

[Benzerari]

I love double-negatives!

Indeed, to come back to affirmatives, instead of simply reversing… assuming it’s just another way, but don’t tel you car hasn't got reverse gear, you like one way system and there is nothing wrong with that, but it may cost more fuel some times, which means more unnecessary spent of money, even in digital electronics, it's still negation of negation = affirmation, but not advisable to be used all the time, it may consume memory space…, long  processing…, a lot of logic gates…., etc

You agree we are just joking and learning at the same time

[Benzerari]

2) Issued on the basis of findings at the time of commissioning.

.

In here, I may disagree, till you convince me, if the batteries has just been fitted, and both voltage and current haven't yet reached their top value (Full charge), therefore the calculation will be done while taking into account the necessary adjustement through Ohm's Law...etc

Imagine you have finished your commissioning in couple of hours of batteries fitting, if you issue the certificate of commissioning straight forward, what's the guaranty the batteries will supply half hour supply in case of mains failure, as the batteries are not yet fully charged?  

You have to be realistic here Benz in balancing the theoritical optimum battery maximum level versus the commercial time of installation/power up/commissioning.
Formula and theory do not a real world make!

It's realism that lets me rise up this concern

[Benzerari]

After doing many batteries capacity calculations in many sites, I have realized that the new calculated capacity is even lower than the smallest batteries capa. reading when using the normal battery tester... i.e.

Today I had:

When using the Ampermeter in serial with the batt:

    I1 = 9mA
    I2 = 22mA    C = 0.549 Ah (If T1 = 48h) and C = 0.29 Ah (If T1=24h)

When measuring with the normal Batt. Tester, I got:

    Batt 1: 1.79Ah
    Batt 2: 0.94Ah

Any technical interpretations ?

Thank you

[Benzerari]

Document No.996-131 Issue 02, Installation Manual of Morley IAS, stated in page 40: the following:

New Batteries require 'top charging' prior to being put into service.

Yuassa recommends top charging at 28.8Vdc for 15 to 20hours for batteries up to 6 months old from date of manufacture.

[Benzerari]

The same document: No.996-131 Issue 02, Installation Manual of Morley IAS, stated in page 38 some adjustment factors:

 1   -   For Apollo and Hochiki devices:                 multiply by 1.5
 2   -   For System Sensor and Nittan devices:      multiply by 1.25

It seems manufacturer guides too, have to be considered, not just BS recommendations!

[Benzerari]

I don't know where you get the 48H figure from unless you are talking about a specific Cat. P system.

In all events your question 3 asked Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine? and the 'current' you were talking about is the 'alarm current', so this should stay the same (taking into account the voltage at the time of measurement, as explained previously) and it can't change by itself (i.e. the components of the system that draw the alarm current won't change depending on the state of the charge of the battery) over any period of time. So, in answer, to your question Would the current calculation taken the 1st day be considered not genuine? the answer is no, it won't be considered 'not genuine'.

I love double-negatives!

1   -   T1 = 24h till 72h it depends of.., but is not the main issue.
2   -   I was talking about both stand by current and alarm current.

[Benzerari]

After doing many batteries capacity calculations in many sites, I have realized that the new calculated capacity is even lower than the smallest batteries capa. reading when using the normal battery tester... i.e.

Today I had:

When using the Ampermeter in serial with the batt:

    I1 = 9mA
    I2 = 22mA    C = 0.549 Ah (If T1 = 48h) and C = 0.29 Ah (If T1=24h)

When measuring with the normal Batt. Tester, I got:

    Batt 1: 1.79Ah
    Batt 2: 0.94Ah

Any technical interpretations ?

Thank you

After nice double espresso and good sleep I realized that, the batteries tester gives a higher reading than when calculating the batteries capacity while taking into account I1 and I2 readings...., this is evident since the batteries tester takes measurements OFF load, while the batteries calculation through I1 and I2 readings..., are done with the load.

My though is; the battery calculation is more genuine than testing batteries capacity with batteries tester.
 
Time is due for another double espresso

[Wiz]

Benz, you've started talking to yourself here

[Allen Higginson]

Benz, you've started talking to yourself here

...."TAXI for Benzerari"!!!!!