Fire doors in Residential care premises (Smoke seals)

[GaryD]

Advice on the necessity to fit intumecent / smoke seals to nominal fire doors.
Folks, I'm employed at a RC Home (28 beds) Original building (Victorian) Later addition (1980's) as the maintenance man & require help on the subject of fire doors. All bedroom doors have swing free self closing devices fitted, linked to the fire alarm system. None show any signs of certification. All have 25mm rebates & fit well in the frames. I am assuming that when installed, all were satisfactory to BS476.
I therfore assume that they are deemed 'Nominal Fire Doors' and not certificated at this moment in time. Although all are in good condition, none have intumecent seals or smoke seals fitted.

Can someone please advise me if these seals are legally required. The recent Fire Risk Assessor has suggested that they are needed. What I need to establish is 1/ Are they required because of his opinion or 2/ Are they required by law or new best practice?

All double corridor doors do have intumecent seals but no smoke seals. Here again I have a question to ask. Some of these seals have been painted over. Are they now going to be ineffective and so require renewal or does the paint have any detremental affect on the seals?

To add, all staff receive regular training, all other systems are checked out by the competent people at the required intervals. Any help appreciated....

[colin todd]

It depends. I am impressed though that a maintenance man has registered with firenet and already knows all about 25 mm rebates and BS 476, certification of fire doors, etc.
Probably best to get a second opinion from the fire and rescue service. I expect they will know.

[GaryD]

Thanks for that Colin & no need to be impressed. The Fire Safety trainers told me all about this. They also said that it would be down to the Fire Risk Assessor to determine the need for seals. Are my questions to vague for you to give your honest opinion Colin or should I have to bother the Fire & Rescue service with them?

[colin todd]

Unlike so many on these boards who want to demonstrate their good and pragmatic advice with only half the facts, I do not give opinions on premises I do not know. It is very very DANGEROUS for those who lack caution in giving advice and those who are wreckless enough to take it.

What is necessary is what arises from a competent risk asessment specific to the premises and all relevant factors, which questions on a bulletin board cannot possibly ever specify.  If you are not happy with the one you have, question the fire risk assessor and ask for the action plan to be justified.  If you are still not happy, ask the fire and rescue service for advice.

The best advice I can give you is that you should seek advice from someone who has visited the premises.  There are NO premises in the land of higher risk than medium sized care homes at night.  What you are doing (perhaps with your heart in the right place if you really are the maintenance man) is, in effect, asking people down the pub, who you do not know and cannot judge in terms of THEIR competence, for advice on fire safety of vulnerable people, who are potentially at risk from fire.  They deserve better.  If it all goes wrong, as has happened in care homes, a defence of " I did not know, so I asked some geezers who I do not know and whose competence I cannot judge, what they thought" is not one enshrined in the Fire Safety Order.

[kurnal]

I agree with Colin, you have paid for a fire risk assessment and should ask the assessor  to clarify and justify their recommendations.

So much is down to the circumstances of the case and  sometimes continuing compliance to an older standard is appropriate and can be justified by the assessment, but in other cases it is appropropriate to recognise technical progress and upgrade existing installations. 

Most manufacturers of intumescent seals give advice on the painting of seals and some are more tolerant than others, some going as far as specifiying the number of coats of paint that may be applied.

Probably one of the best resources of all on fire doors is the website of the Architectural and Specialist Doors Manufacturers Association, ASDMA,  who produce an excellent best practice guide and other documents, all of which may be downloaded here:
http://www.asdma.com/bpg.html

[GaryD]

Colin, I agree, they do deserve better. The reason I tried to find answers here is because the FSO & relevant guides do not give specific details on how to achieve compliance. At least here, I can tap into the knowledge of those who probably know best. I would not like to describe those who use this particular forum as "people down the pub" though!!
My conclusion so far is that the decision to upgrade should because the RA has recommended them & that he should determine why he has come to that conclusion. There is obviously no black or white answer to question 2 because there exists no information in the FSO or guides about upgrading previously satisfactory standards to new codes of practice. I have spent many years maintaining Crown Estate property & there, they only upgrade if there has been a material alteration either in building use or design or the risk level has gone up. All I wanted to establish is: Is this the case in the private sector?
My thanks to Kernal. He has answered my question on painted seals perfectly with the guide he has posted. This guide will be very helpful to me & probably others in the future.

[Tom Sutton]

Gary This subject has been discussed a number of times on this forum and never to my knowledge has a consensus of opinion been agreed and as said above its all about risk assessment.

As for the over painting of intumescent seals also check out "BS 8214:2008 Code of practice for fire door assemblies" Page 16 & 19. Even that is not definitive one says you shouldn't the other says up to 5 times is acceptable.

[deaconj999]

Try www.ifsa.org.uk also they are very good.

In terms of the overpainting of intumescent seals, it has already been covered, but talking in terms of management by the RP and general workmanship of the 'competent' decorator, I prefer to educate and advise not to paint or indeed varnish over seals as I have come across too many cold smoke seals that have undergone radical surgery with a stanley type blade (other blades types are available from all good manufacturers) - to get a smooth paint finish  .

In doing so, I have never had to estimate if they are on their 5th coat or even worse a 6th ......

[Davo]

As GFSM says, try IFSA on the painting of seals.
You should find their answer to the same question I sent them some years ago (5 or less)- they publicised it on their front page.
My answer is if you can't tell they are there then clean em up

In regard to the other stuff,get the RA to give reasons why, that's what he's paid for.
As CT so wisely says, CLG, BS,Trade sites etc are all guides to best practice. I would however state the old dears deserve the best, they've earned it

davo

[Tom W]

Im out on a contraversial limb and im saying there is no legal requirment for strips and seals.

They are liked as they are a cheap method of putting a fire officers mind at rest about the resistance of the door.

Do strips and seals work as effectively as we like to think they do? In real fires, what percentage work?

[FSO]

Im out on a contraversial limb and im saying there is no legal requirment for strips and seals.

Of course that depends on who you are. A fire consultant or a barrister

[Tom W]

With fancy words you can probably convince someone yes.

I would like to see where it is written that it is a legal requirement to have intumescent strips.

Challenge firenet! 

[nearlythere]

With fancy words you can probably convince someone yes.

I would like to see where it is written that it is a legal requirement to have intumescent strips.

Challenge firenet!  

A friend of mine asked me the exact same question last week and this is the reply I gave him.

You will find it in the same place where it says that it is a legal requirment to have fire doors.

I'm not saying that this reply suits your particular situation but it may help you with your research into the matter.

[Tom W]

Thanks for the sarcasm nearly there! 

As you know I wasn't talking about fire doors though. The problem I have with strips and seals are that I call into question their usefullness. Fire doors however i don't debate their worth.

So when fire officers are telling people they must install seals, which song book are they singing from? Is this historical or common sense leading the way.

[CivvyFSO]

Are we not being a little flippant here?

Someone working in the residential-care setting has asked for advice regarding strips and seals. The risk assessment has pointed out that in the opinion of the risk assessor, strips and seals are required. You couldn't have much of a clearer 'need' for strips and seals, backed up even further by the opinion of the consultant.

You need a "legal requirement"?

"in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible"

There is your legal requirement, which when applied to the case in question is more than likely going to require strips and seals on any doors protecting escape routes.