Legal lights for reatined firefighters

[parttimeinessex]

As you may be aware retained firefighters can have lights on there vehicles helping them to move through traffic. In a letter form STEPHEN LADYMAN

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:H5_bLw17eUEJ:www.siralanhaselhurst.net/press/Retainedfirefighters.pdf+saffron+walden+firefighters&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3


He confirms that these lights are legal. Although they are not blue they may give some one out there who is able to investigate the law, the possibility to find a loop hole which will say allow these to flash etc.

[messy]

Typical politician's fudge.

Although I only have limited experience of working with retained personnel, I do sympathise that, although: Senior Officers, Fire Investigation Units and even Canteen Vans are fitted with Blues & Twos, fire crews responding to man a first response fire appliance cannot. It's madness.

The Govt's excuse seems rather limp too. I would be interested to hear what other similar group of workers would jump on the bandwagon if retained FS were given the green light (sorry blue light) for this change.

Apart from the obvious such as lifeboat & coastgaurd staff, I can't think of any off the top of my head!

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

Its an age old discussion about whether retained Ffs should be able to use blue lights. Having worked retained for many years as a WT ff until recently I would say it is a bad idea. Lots of Ffs have little signs and the mentioned iluminated signs (that don't flash) and they serve no purpose whatsoever.

To have a whole station trained to EFAD standard and provide blue lights and tones & insure all of these vehicles would be far too expensive. Lets face it we all work with Ffs who scare the hell out of us when they drive a fire engine let alone their own car!

If I was out in my car and I got a shout I used to drive to the station at normal speed and was overtaken by all the first pump keen loonies! I witnessed several accidents over the years, a couple were a very close call and one Ff was taken to court. Best thing to do is to get yourself a push bike and you can go in and out of the traffic safely! And its enviormentaly friendly.

[parttimeinessex]

I have often thought that the green light would be a good compromise, the public knows that this is a member of the emergency services (a doctor) on route to an emergency and only a small amount of education would bring the new use to the publics attention, and I think (although not sure) a green light does not allow you to break any of the road laws. Surely this makes the retained firefighter not only safer on the road but will be able to respond to a shout quicker. As a retained firefighter for over 16 years I know the stress and the pressure you feel when sitting in traffic trying to get to the station when a Sunday afternoon driver (not their fault) won’t let you pass. Firefighters of the uk must start contacting their mps and get their union to support this issue.

[parttimeinessex]

If the pump was being driven dangerously then that’s the oic fault and he or she should be reprimanded, as an officer my self if any of my drivers show any careless or dangerous driving the appliance will be stopped and a change of driver will take place. They are all informed of this policy before they go on driving courses and they all respect the position of driver and realise that its privilege that can and will be removed if necessary. Having served at my station for over 16 years we have only had a couple of accidents were the whole time pumps up the road seem to have 2 a week.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

As an ex retained fire-fighter, I know how frustrating it is to get to the station on calls.

You seem to be missing one major point here .......... who will trian you to drive under an emergency response condition and will your insurance company allow you to do this?

All officers that respond to calls have a car insured to cover the duty and I would think are trained to drive on blue lights.

Just because you are retained does not give you permission to drive outside road traffic law! Imagine some lawyer in court cross examining you after you have had an accident while responding to a call even if using a recognised light ........ not a position I'd like to be in!

Personally, lights for retained are a no no in my opinion, and for good reason!

[Andy Cole]

I think officers have to have EFAD training, if the green light is used just as a method of infroming the public that you are an emergency services worker responding to a call but doesn't actually give you any of the bebnefits that a blue light brings it sounds like a good idea!, otherwise the method I often adopt is to flash my headlights and lean on the horn, this more often than not has the desired effect!

[parttimeinessex]

There are no requirements for extra driver training to drive on blue lights and as for insurance, business insurance covering emergency vehicle use is all you need, and remember if anyone uses their car on brigade purpose ie home fire safety visit, you should have this insurance already. And one more thing im talking about a green lights not blue.

[Kaiser]

There are no requirements for extra driver training to drive on blue lights

I totally disagree with this statement, the fire service as an employer has a duty of care to ensure that drivers of emergency vehicles are trained to high standard which is far superior to that of a normal driving test.  This training makes drivers more aware of road conditions, other peoples driving habits when confronted by emergency vehicles attending incidents and driving tactics.

As an ex retained firefighter I fully understand the frustration of sitting at a red traffic light when it is clear that there is no other traffic coming, I also understand that the adrenaline is pumping and particularly when a "persons reported" house fire you just want to overtake everyone in the world to get to station and go to the job.

As a wholetime firefighter and a junior officer I also appreciate the need for proper EFAD training and also the regular EFAD refresher training.  This training is done by all officers who attend incidents in their cars so why should retained firefighters who are just a keen to get to station be any different.  

In my experience, it is usually the younger retained firefighters who like to go crazy en route to station and the older hands are generally more sensible (I do realise that this may not always be the case) This is why there should not be blue lights for retained firefighters in their personal cars along with the fact that there could also be a lot of abuse of these lights.

[AnthonyB]

I think what is more accurate is that 'There are no LEGAL requirements for extra driver training to drive on blue lights' although when the subsidiary Order under the Road Safety Act 2006 is enacted speed limit exemption will require approved training

Community responders are in the same position, except all their calls are potentially life threatening (no AFAs!) and they have to do the whole journey in private cars or scheme cars with no blue lights (a few exceptions exist). They offcially enquired to get green lights and no exemptions last year and got an official response of not happening for the forseeable future

[scott]

Community responders are in the same position, except all their calls are potentially life threatening (no AFAs!)

Yes those itchy teeth and 2 week old back pain can be right killers!?

[fireftrm]

the method I often adopt is to flash my headlights and lean on the horn, this more often than not has the desired effect!

I bet that  makes you popular in the local community. I would always, quickly, move out of the way of any such perosn, not. I would do my utmost to maintain th elegal speed limit and prevent such an idiot form getting past and into oncoming traffic. Clearly a drunken charva who needs to be stopped from causing further danger to the public.

Maybe some sensible answers here, like making sure that the attending RDS live within the catchment area so that they can, safely and legally, drive to the station and arrive there within the required time? Either the employers, or the applicants, are bending the 'time it takes to get to the station' part of the application stage?

[parttimeinessex]

There seems to be a lot of comments from ex this and whole time that. Let’s look at things from as different angle. You’ve lost a loved one and you’re looking for a reason, lets hope that it wasn’t that the fire appliance was delayed 10 minutes as the crew were unable to attend the station, due to a lorry unloading or some one double parked. In the last few years demands on the retained fire service have increased with building developments and with no investment in the infrastructure those roads which allowed free passage for the retained personnel are now clogged with traffic. As appliances have developed from bells to two tones and so on. And from a single blue light to the amazing light show we can now put on. Why are the retained still expected to work as it did, why has the government not develop the way the retained respond to calls, and lets think of the life boat, community responders, coast guards and other versions of emergency teams. The bottom line it’s the government are still playing with peoples lives

[fireftrm]

No it is not parttimeinessex. The government do not set the times that you have to be mobile in, they do not recruit staff who have to travel through congested streets, they do not leave stations in in accessible places when developments occur. The local FRS does. Simple.

Just how much of an issue have you made of this with your FRS and your local council? If we had stations that, regularly, did not respond (mobile) withon 5 minutes we would be looking very deeply into its viability. We would be recruiting persons who lived within an actual travelling distance (whatever the trafiic) and examining other possibilities (moving the station, reallocating the risks to another station, bringing in part-time staff for critical periods, etc.). Having RDS staff equipped to drive through congestion by the use of emergency service warning devices is hardly an option. The possibilities for disaster are enormous, I have seen the response by the RDS in getting to stations as it is, running red lights, horns blasting, headlights flashing, fists waving, plus racing each other to make sure they get on. Not all, I know, but a significant part of the service. Imagine the appliance turning out heading down the Main St, meets later RDS attendee head on, both blues and twos and going in opposite directions, quite a display? Better to have a sensible, risk assessed, approach with staff employed who can get there on time, or one of the other options. By the way I was RDS for 5.5 years, so I speak with experience of having been in the mad rush, aslo as manager of a group of RDS stations I have experienced the RTCs caused by attending staff, the Police questions about staff red light running, the displays of audible and visual warnings etc.

[parttimeinessex]

Fireftrm

Sorry to disagree but brigades do employ staff too far from stations I was one of those ff that were taken on. I was told by the ado in charge that I lived too far away, but this hands were tied as he didn’t have a day crew and the pump was off the run all day every day, he took me on because I told him that I would try and move nearer the station this didn’t happen for 6 years. I was employed in the 80s and the response time then was 3 minutes I lived 6 to 7 minutes away, that same journey now takes 10 to 12 minutes depending on the time of the day
As for moving stations and pumps and personnel that in today’s budgetary restrictive environment is not practical.
I have never said that retained firefighters should be given blue lights (read my posts) I have said a green warning beacons, I think that this could reduce retained firefighters accidents on route to stations as they would be recognised by other road users and wouldn’t have to take chances. And another point if a retained or any other emergency worker was to ignore that road laws I would be the first to say throw the whole weight of the law at them and dismiss them form which ever service the belonged to. one other thing as im on my soap box why is it that fire investigation officers fly around on blues and twos flexi officers fly around on blues and twos. None of which are any use without that retained pump crewed by retained firefighters doing the job they love. Show trust in retained crews and you will get it back 10 fold